BD Forum Shutdown & Follow-Up [debate]

Woo! Godwin's law strikes again!

Really, it's not cool, but the porn site is labeled that way because people want to see specific genetalia, not who you are as a person. It's sad seeing people getting worked up over how "dehumanizing" labeling the porn that way is, when it's already porn to begin with. Yes, Varka could have been more respectful about it, but he's ultimately right saying that they should stick to one category.

 

Playing off of what Murphy said, the porn industry itself is automatically dehumanizing. People are sorted by fetish, not by who they are. So everyone is broken into like groups of sex, gender, race, bodymass, height, genitalia, genitalia size, breast size, trans status, fetish. It's not exactly a medium where everyone is considered equal in the first place, and arguably Varka's comment (although perhaps not thought out enough) served to ensure that porn continued to be a sorted as it always has been. I don't think that necessarily makes him ignorant of trans issues, it just means he is in charge of a porn site.

 

While the comments themselves were possibly not offensive to some people, I think the thing that got people up in arms were how they were handled.

Someone was upset about the coffee joke, and instead of handling it in a mature way, the Twitter told them pretty much it was their fault they were upset and they were in the wrong. And to just not follow their Twitter if they don't like it. It's not hard to just apologize for the comment off the bat.

On the topic of the racism thing, there were people who asked for it to be changed. Twitter person said that they saw no problem with it and argued with people who were offended. Meanwhile people noticed the flesh/peach change. People were upset because they saw it as them being unwilling to listen to complaints. With that one in particular, that escalated into the Twitter essentially saying it'd be their job to come up with a new name for it. Which people did suggest and they didn't change. Once again, it essentially boiled down to "well it's your problem, not ours" again.

I think there was a whole lot more to it than just the comments, and I can see why people introduced to those issues at the time of the forum shutdown didn't see why it was such a big deal.

 

Yes, but the point is that, except for the parts with twitter, everything was handled the same way any other "large" company would handle it.

 

I think you should have your reigns in on your official Twitter. BUT even disregarding that they could have also relayed in the concerns of people who wanted it changed and discussed it among the shop. Coming up with another name doesn't seem too difficult, you know?

Small edit: I just think their PR is really bad. I feel like they turn a blind eye to anything that might say they did something wrong. And that attitude is really problematic.

 

It doesn't, but they're also under no obligation to do so.

And I agree, they need to keep their twitter in check, but they aren't the first company who put someone irresponsible at the helm of their twitter.

 

I've seen the "they have no obligation" argument a few times, but at the same time, being amiable to customers and potential customers is a part of business. Restaurants wouldn't hire servers that make potentially rude comments to customers. When something is found to be offensive, many businesses will take down said inflammatory thing. (sans some very conservative businesses.) Working with customers is kind of an important part of business.
I don't think they're devils for those comments or anything, but I would call it unprofessional for a company that is trying to enter large business status.

 

I can't even follow the Duke twitter. It's so... ugh.
It's like they're trying to be that meme of being purposely an ass but it's not funny when it's the face of a huge company. Like, imagine if the Geico Gecko or the Aflac Duck were to just make inappropriate jokes on a public medium?

 

*laughing because that's literally all that Gilbert Gottfried does all day*

 

Yeah, that's why he was fired as the Aflac duck 3 years ago.

 

Maybe I'm weird, but the one porn DVD I have, I got because of one of the actresses, Michele Lay. Used to watch her live streaming videos and she was quite personable, interacting with people before, during, and after stripping and doing her thing. Almost like the sexual stuff was an after thought.

 

I don't think it's weird- the best vids IMO are where the people are clearly enjoying themselves, having a laugh with the people behind the camera or at at home etc. If they are clearly bored and just making silly noises to cover for it, it's not sexy at all.

I guess it's like any form of visual entertainment- the more of a connection you make with an audience, the more they'll get from your performance because it's a shared experience. Obviously, there needs to be a certain amount of distance put between them and the viewers, simply so they can switch off the camera and get on with the rest of their day.

Yeah, looking at it, I can't quite see what they're trying to accomplish with that account. If they're absolutely set on RP'ing as Duke on Twitter, they could at least put some sort of obvious disclaimer up.

Actually, why did they choose a snarky, domineering a-hole as their mascot character?

 

Ok I'm gonna make a general post here. I specifically stated in my post that I wasn't saying that jokes were equivalent to genocide nor was I saying that making jokes will inevitably lead to genocide. What I was explaining was the pyramid of oppression and how oppressions are interlinked even when they aren't of the same intensity. No I really don't think that a sexist joke here or there will lead to genocide of women. That's a ludicrous belief to have and nobody that holds it should be taken seriously. What I was saying is that sexist jokes like the one duke made are problematic because they can feed a larger culture of sexism that can and does give tacit permission for greater abuses to happen. It is not equivalent but it is interconnected. And also I'd like to pre-emptively address another point. People always act like one specific thing is not that bad because it's just that, one instance. And one instance of a relatively minor aggression/abuse really isn't that bad. Except for this one micro-aggression doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in a space where it's just one more drop in a bucket that's already filled with other singular drops. Taken as one instance it doesn't really have any power but the combined weight of all these individual things is staggering. That is why I take things like the duke "joke" seriously.

Also don't panic I don't want to get into a giant fight either but trans dudes are dudes. Their vagina (if they have one) is a dude vagina and their ass is ass. I know that lots of people aren't interested in that when they look in the guys section of a site but it doesn't change the fact that their body is a dude's body. And, personally, I was less offended by Varka wanting the vids moved than how it was said (cuz I really do get that when people look in guys and toys they expect cis dudes and don't want to see vaginas) but it was the language that was used and the tone that it was done with. It wasn't a polite notification using respectful language that they want trans people porn in the trans porn space instead of the cis porn space it was a nasty demand followed up with childish behavior. That is what I was upset about, how the person was treated, not the request in general.



And also don't panic that was a really friggen awesome post about the history. I also don't think that the german people were sheep to hitler and that he was the originator of antisemitism in germany. I don't think my post made that clear and I'm sorry for that but I was tired and didn't want to write a novel. I think hitler was a brilliant manipulator and therefore capitalized upon something that already existed because one of the best ways to unite people is to give them a common enemy. Though I wasn't trying to give a direct history lesson, just show the way that the phenomena of increasing aggressions can happen. And I'll say it again I explicitly stated I wasn't paralleling the holocaust to sexist jokes, I was using a well known situation to illustrate a concept.

 

That is a really good question. It makes me wish that the Q&A over there was still open, so that I could ask them.
The more I think about what Duke said, the more hesitant I am to call it a joke. Not because I think it was serious(I don't), but because it doesn't seem like it was meant to be funny. There is no punchline in that statement. If you wanted to make a joke about liking women like you like your coffee, the first couple replies give example what you could say such as with cream in them(very fitting coming from the mascot of an adult toy company) or with a spoon if we just want to be bizarre. Admittedly such a joke could be seen as demeaning no matter the content simply due to that being the premise of comparing a group of people to something. At least then though it would be a legitimate attempt at humor instead of a very awkward statement made while RPing a questionable character.

I've never followed Duke on Twitter, so I haven't seen much of what has been said over the years, but isn't that the official Bad-Dragon account? I know there is a disclaimer in the profile about being snarky, offensive and not a PR account, but why would you make your official account PR unfriendly? That just makes no sense, even less so seeing as you are RPing as your mascot. Who portrays their mascot as a jerk or doesn't use him for the purpose of improving public relations. I would imagine and also hope that like most things with BD, as things grew, it just got out of hand and carried away. I'm not familiar with the majority of the tweets though so maybe it has always been like this. That honestly wouldn't surprise me either. BD has unfortunately always had something of a superiority vibe in their communications; that underlying feeling of "we do what we want and if you don't like it, fuck off!"

That leads me back to the Q&A topics that they held at the forums. After having reading through the answers, I can see why they may have not answered questions prior and almost wish they don't make this too regular a thing. Don't get me wrong; I'm all for users asking questions and getting answers and just more transparency with their decisions and where they want to take the business. I just think they may need to let someone else answer cause I felt even worse about the company after reading some of those responses. It's almost like when ever they speak in an official capacity, they end up shooting themselves in the foot more and that is really sad. It makes me actually want less staff presence on their forums, not that I really use them anymore but hypothetically. There's always been a bit of an attitude problem from BD regarding the forums, even from day one in my opinion, but it has gotten so much worse over time. To clarify, even when they first started, they had strict rules about not posting regarding orders, especially problems or hiccups in the process or wait times, and their version of "constructive" criticism which was essentially asskissing. I still cringe whenever one of them uses the word constructive. Why they wanted to censor feedback and funnel everything through the ticket system; I'm not sure I will ever understand, but at least they've been consistent in that regard.

 

I agree that in the case of the Duke Twitter, that was badly thought out and an inappropriate place to make such a comment. Having said that, I'm just trying to work out exactly what you're advocating. Do you mean things like that shouldn't be said by a business or public body, or that they shouldn't be said at all?

OK, I'll put my hands up with this one and say that I didn't look at the screenshots clearly enough. I went back and looked again. Seems like there was genuine confusion about the new posting rules from BonusHoleBoy, combined with confusion from Varka about how to properly label the channels, which then blew up into....I don't know what. I can't explain why Varka would remove everything suddenly- I remember the guy's username, and tbh I didn't mind the vids he posted (and yes, I know he's a guy even though he doesn't have a penis). So, yeah, that could easily have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

Also, who's guystripes?

 

GuyStripes is a different user. I believe Keely just mixed up who was posting.

 

Ah, right- I was wondering if she was calling me names!

Right! It'd be like if they had a physical store, and had someone dressing up as Duke and standing outside the door going "Hey, toots! I got what you want right HERE!!! *grabs crotch*"
Who are they trying to impress, and how did it get to that stage?

Personally think either Varka, Raith or both (assuming they're the head honchos) should step back and see if they can get someone in who has a proper business management background to take charge. I know that BD is their baby and it probably hurts to see it being maligned, but it's pretty clear that they don't really know how to run it properly, now that it's taken off. It needs the professional touch.

 

dame is right I messed it up!!!! my brain went weird apparently.

And I generally advocate against it because of reasons stated before and I also don't think that insulting things are funny, full stop. I don't like laughing at other people's expense (perhaps because many jokes were made at my expense growing up). So those kinds of jokes were never funny to me in the first place and you add on all the esoteric stuff talked about before and you get a double dose of not laughing. But I especially don't think a business or public body should be doing it. It's just in really poor taste.

And yeah. I really don't think Varka was trying to be transphobic and a douchecanoe but it's what happened and just meh on it.

 

Little thoughts left over from a previous incident there Keely? I joke, the past is the past. Nothing personal.

So I've been hearing BD changed a few things, brought a few things back. Can anyone provide a primer or a summary of what's going on over there? I like to stay informed.

 

It looks like they brought signatures back, and they had a shark week special with a few retired water themed models. They got rid of flop fridays and Varka said people were "whining," which didn't go over well on tumblr but no one said anything on the forum thread. Audax scolded someone for asking how often flops will drop. It seems like they're cracking down on negativity/questioning the mighty BD. They're having a big discount now, bigger than I've ever seen. Presumably to endear themselves again.
There's no more off topic as far I'm aware.