Gender Identity and Orientation (casual talk)

BE CIVIL
NO NAME CALLING
AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH SOMONE
NO WASP COMMENTARY (aka using polite words and phrasing to still be an asshole)​

 

okay this is getting really stupid.
I'm on tumblr right.
I started following this one blog a while ago because it had good art and fan stuff from Steven Universe, but like the blogger is a total pill.

They completely pander to their fans and will practically do whatever they ask and they're one of those "Gender Label Warriors". I'm not talking about a rational, open minded human being that looks out for the unrepresented people in our society. I'm talking about the frothing at the mouth, finds an issue with any/everything and everything has to be just so type.
For instance, a fan requested they draw a genderbend of a favorite character. The blogger's response was that "I don't draw gender swap because its cissexist and gross." and I'm like, wtf? how is that gross? Are you telling me I'm not allowed to draw any character as anything other than their cannon self/identity? Screw that noise.
Another instance, an Anon said that drawing child characters as adults in sexual situations is disgusting and promotes pedophilia and the blogger suddenly just agrees with them and proceed to actively bash aged up adult artwork. Really dude??
Like I'm just soooo amazed at how far the blogger runs with this stuff. They have Anon's being stanky about Fionna and Cake, because apparently its cissexist and binarist. Excuse me, but last time I checked, the word "swap" means to trade one for another. Finn goes by male pronouns and (supposedly) has a penis, now unless I'm missing something, the opposite condition as Fionna would be to go by female pronouns and (supposedly) have a vagina. Now I suppose the 3 flaws with genderswap is that (1) people are still incorrectly thinking Gender = Sex. (2) "swap" does imply that there are only two choices (which in the case of SEX isn't right. I think we're at three: male, female, intersex. But theres like a jillion genders now). (3) The character's orientations almost always remain the same (Finn and Fionna were still perceived hetero).
But there is just no pleasing this blogger and their Anons, because apparently if you aren't drawing fan art that isn't trans or non cis then that makes you "trash, gross, disgusting" or any of their other favorite words.

 

I always get a bit miffed when I see tumblr people responding to asks, containing questions like "What gender do you identify as?" Why do they feel the need to answer "You can refer to me as whatever you see me as." That just doesn't make any sense. Gender is social, but it's personal. I thought the point of this revolution is to take control of our gender identities, not leave it up to literally anyone to decide. Do people really not care, at all, how they are labelled? Can the answer to the question "What gender do you identify as?" really be as simple as "I don't."

I generally try to avoid discussing gender and sex, unless I need to. I find that most people have no framework to fit more information into. I had a very long argument with a friend about somebody on his job site who was (By my understanding of his ill-equipped explanation) an FtM trans person. He simply couldn't start with agreeing that sex and gender are two different concepts. If we had started there, and I really did try, the conversation would have been a lot shorter. But no, penises and vaginas are all that matter to him.

I heard a lady on my bus recently use the word "He-she." I felt a little angry, but really couldn't fault her. She's in her late 40s, this isn't something she's ever been informed on. Her experience with the topic is probably limited to what she's seen on TV. I didn't want to jump in on the conversation between her and a woman in her 60s to start preaching about proper terms for genders and identities because it would clearly have been an uphill battle I had no personal stake in, that probably would have taken longer than the entire trip to make progress on.

I was very fortunate to bump into a highschool friend during college, who mentioned that he was trans. I had zero knowledge of the term when I met him, and learned everything I know about it from him. I don't even think about which gender term to use for him anymore. I've actually completely forgotten that my second trans friend is ftm. It's that simple. When you work the complexity of gender identity and sexual identity into your worldview, it fits like a nice pair of glasses and you completely forget you're wearing them. Just as how my repeated corrections, telling people I'm bisexual, not gay, have lead to people using the word bisexual without being prompted, educating myself on the topic of gender has made me forget, to a degree, that most people have no idea there is more to it than the average person assumes.

I'd probably not make a huge effort to ask people what pronouns they use on meeting them, I'm more the type to play by ear. If somebody presents reasonably as male, I'll assume that male pronouns are reasonable. If I misgender somebody, I'll apologize and ask for the preferred terms. If I'm initially confused, I will ask from the getgo. But I'm not going to make "What pronouns do you prefer?" a standard greeting, it's just not useful in the vast majority of interactions with other human beings.

Some of you have probably heard of Renard Queenston, also known by other labels including Renard, Queenston, Lapfox, and a whole host of other names. They're pretty big online and in the furry community, for their games and music (Mungyodance anyone?) Well I know them, and was a friend of theirs in highschool. I haven't seen them in ages and last we talked, it was just to clarify gender terms. They don't use facebook much so I haven't even had a chance to communicate with them in quite a long time. They're the main source of confusion over gender terms in my regular speech, here in my small farming community. If I mention them to my boyfriend, usually telling a funny story from highschool, I start by clarifying that they/them is a singular they/them, and I have to reference their brother, as my boyfriend has only met him. So I make the effort, and say G_____'s sibling. I stumble my way over my they's and them's, but I get it out, and I try so very hard to wrap my head around the correct, but awkward-sounding, agendered pronouns. I hope I have a chance to see them again someday, if only to convey my respect for their development as an artist, and the courage it took to identify as agendered, taking on the life-long task of explaining what the hell that means to people. I often wonder what their quiet, homely parents think of all this gender stuff. I'm sure they're just happy to see Ren surviving, making money, and finding fulfillment with what makes them happy, namely, gaming and music. They came a long way from screwing with midi sounds in the basement of their parents' house to being an internet icon.

 

@Exeter
I do feel like its getting harder for people to coexist and get along nowdays.
The more labels and lines we draw on the floor, the harder it gets to cross the room without stepping over/on one, which is hard enough for the bold and confident, but nightmarish for those who may be socially awkward or shy.

 

*Changes Gender Identity field to Me*

 

I don't generally like talking about this kind of thing because I am trans, but there definitely are a lot of issues in the "trans community" that you guys have touched on here. I consider myself a fairly straight forward ftm person. I don't like being trans. I don't even like the 'female to' part of the label. I want to be seen no differently than a cis-guy. I wish I could leave out my entire past and flip a switch and be considered entirely 100% male from the get-go. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way and I have to go through the process of transitioning to achieve what I would like to be viewed as in society. It takes a while and it doesn't come easily. I'll be on medication for the rest of my life, have visible scars, and likely never be able to look in the mirror and truly see what I want to see in my reflection. And those hardships pale in comparison to the constant struggle with validating myself and those like myself to society. It is what it is though.

The issues I find with the trans community come into play when people make it into more than what it really is. More specifically, a portion of the Tumblr (and other sites, I'm sure) trans community seems to think that, while yes gender is a spectrum, it does not include those who identify as another species. When I ask someone's gender and they tell me they're a fox, I'm sorry, but they obviously have no idea what the fuck gender is. Gender does not equal being non-human entirely. Honestly, I don't even know why or how therian and otherkin people infiltrated the trans community and put themselves under the trans* umbrella, because the concepts are nothing alike. So it bothers the heck out of me that they are trying to make their plight heard by using the word "trans" as a way to gain attention. It takes away from trans people who are struggling to make their place in society more widely accepted. I know not all people who identify themselves as otherkin or a therian consider themselves trans because they are one of those things, and I also know some people who identify as those things are also trans, but they are not one in the same. Maybe I don't get it. But from my point of view, a spiritual or religious outlook on your species has nothing to do with being trans*.

That's my rant. It's not quite what you guys were talking about, but yeah. It becomes a slippery slope when we talk about all the different types of gender identities out there and I feel hesitant bringing this up on a forum where there may be otherkin and therian people that could take offense, but please note that I do know not all otherkin and therians are like that. I'm just saying I do see it occasionally and I believe it is problematic when it is likened to being trans*.

 

I literally had NO idea some therian folks are trying to use trans as their umbrella, those are completely unrelated things :/
I know my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot, but I've always thought of you as pretty manly and honestly I forget that you're trans at all until you say so lol

 

I had no idea you were trans lol you could have NOT mentioned it and I would never have assumed anything other than cismale

 

@Misskin, yeah, it's odd and I've seen it on Tumblr especially more than once. It baffles me how they could make the correlation but they do. Being a therian or otherkin doesn't bother me, it's just when they appropriate trans issues that it does.
xD Thanks though, glad you and @Exeter view me in that light! Passing is a pretty big deal to me and everywhere else online I am "stealth". BDC is the only place I feel comfortable enough to disclose that information and I'm really glad that even when I do it's no big deal or people would never have suspected.

 

IKNOWRIGHT

 

Well as far as I'm concerned, you're not "passing" you simply are male lol

 

Good! That's the goal! It's what I consider myself as well. Just a guy. xD
I always say if someone wants to get technical I will disclose that - yes, I am a trans-male, but I try really hard to present as seamlessly male as possible and I also don't like to make a big deal of it. It just is.
I can't help checking out topics like this though. I always have to see what the discussion is about. The points you both brought up I also feel in agreement with. Some things get blown way out of proportion when it comes to this stuff.

 

So one of my friends brought up a slightly confusing topic about orientation with trans people. Like, if you're a straight female (before transitioning) does that make you a gay male afterwards? Just like if you're a gay male and you transition into a female body, does that make you straight now? He was just like, wayyy overthinking it, but it did bring up interesting thoughts.

Anyways, about Orientation stoof. I've been seeing a huge expansion of terms in the LGBTQIX* (WHATEVER THE FUCK THE REST OF THE ACRONYM IS NOW XD) community. Like, Demisexual, and Omnisexual, and Pansexual, and so on. When in my mind, I really only see straight, gay, and bi, and I think the other "terms" used are just more specifically broken down forms of those base three sexualities. (not including asexuality/nonsexuality/etc.. those are sort of all in their own caste as well). Anyways, I just think the labeling thing is getting way too crazy and odd. LGBTQ should cover the spectrum as far as the NEEDED terms go. Everything else... I mean, new labels appear all the time now. It's starting to feel like it's getting less serious and it's much harder for people outside our community to really understand and work into allying and changing their ideas and so on for rights and all that. Kinda annoys me.

 

Not to mention gender identity is getting crazy. I basically only understand cisgender, transgender, and genderfluid/some intermixed gender. I mean, people claiming to be no gender, or like, some crazy off thing that makes no sense. I just want to be like... "Ok, ok, biological gender, mental/internal gender. Check, and check." and when someone is all, "Oh but I'm this [insert thirdgenderism random ass name]" I just want to choke them to death. Like, no. You're male, female, or somewhere between the two in the spectrum. You're not an alien, or some other fucking, I don't even know. :c Sorry for the rant, I just, so much annoyance at how crazy shit is getting.

 

This.

I honestly just cannot understand WHY people are so dead set on setting labels for EVERY aspect of their lives. Even things that shouldn't be labelled.
Like gender identity.

All it really does is alienate you more and more from other people...when we really should all be focusing on bringing ourselves closer together. As in: no labels, being who you are and accepting everyone for who they are WITHOUT trying to form cliques and groups. To me, that's just contradictory.

 

The thing to remember here is that gender and sexuality are not the same and one does not dictate the other. So yes, in the case of a formerly straight female that transitions to male would indeed then be a gay man. I actually know a lot of gay ftm guys. I also know of a lot of ftm guys who used to identify as lesbians. Just because you transition doesn't mean the type of person you're attracted to changes. ^^

 

A-to the effin-men to all the above

 

I don't like calling gender an identity to begin with. I don't like saying "I identify as male" though I know a lot of trans people do use that phrase and embrace it. I don't see it as an identity. I see it as this: I'm a guy. No big deal. xD

In the case of trans people, however, a lot of the time throughout their transition they will get misgendered and have to make a point of telling the person doing so that they would prefer to be addressed with a certain set of pronouns. In that instance, saying, "hey, I'm a guy, so please use he/him/his pronouns" is pretty commonplace. It's an unfortunate situation because it does set them apart (and sometimes subject them to discrimination), but in order to make themselves feel validated, sometimes they have to make a point of it. It's tough and in those cases it is important to understand why people do feel the need to label themselves.

The first things people notice about another person is gender and race. Unfortunately, on top of that, so much of society is incredibly gendered. I agree that it would be nice if everyone could just be themselves if 'male' and 'female' never existed, but they do exist. I don't necessarily agree with how some trans people use it as a label just to gain attention or set themselves apart as a special snowflake, though. It's not something that needs to be glorified. It just is. Just like being gay or asexual or whatever. It's doesn't make you special or different. You're just another person, really.

The only issue is that those who do identify anywhere on the LGBTQ spectrum are still looked down upon, discriminated against, objectified, abused, and sometimes even killed for who they are. Everyone needs to see each other as what we are: Humans. We're all just people. No one should be treated any differently, any better, or any worse based on their gender, race, or sexual orientation. Everyone needs to just be on equal ground already. I don't think it's possible... at least not for a long while yet, but there you have it - my long winded explanation for why we can't just not have labels, as much as I agree how nice it would be.

 

I can understand that you /can't/ but what I don't understand, is that people seem to be getting more and more outrageous in their labels, rather than trying the opposite. Which is showing a DEGRESSION rather than progression.

And like you said, it's primarily driven by those who use the Trans label to make themselves feel like special snowflakes.

I have a few close friends who are Trans, and they never make a big deal about it. I have nothing but the upmost respect for them.
However, I also know a lot of asshats who make it a point to call anyone and everyone out on stupid mistakes and then cry 'Injustice!' and it really irks me.
A lot.

I also read an interesting article that said that siblings of transgendered people tended to identify with being transgendered themselves later on in their life...which just kinda proves that for many people it's a fad, or for attention/admiration purposes, and that's completely missing the point IMO, and is even kindof offensive and stupid.

 

Them words,
They've been taken out of my mouth x3